Summary

We have discussed whether states can exist without territory and whether criminal organizations like the mafia could be considered such. While traditional states require territorial control, sovereignty, and international recognition, groups like the mafia often assume state functions in weak or corrupt societies. They provide protection, economic systems, and a kind of "shadow justice," but are based on coercion rather than a legitimate social contract. In this sense, their rise can be seen as a sign of a "terminated" social contract—although not as a genuine alternative to a functioning state.

When does a state cease to be a state?

You said:

Why are states connected to territories? Or is there an example of states without a fixed territory?

ChatGPT said:

States are usually associated with a specific territory because the classic concept of a state is based on three fundamental elements:

1. People – a group of people subject to a common national identity.
2. Territory – a geographically defined area within which state power is exercised.
3. State power – the ability to enforce binding rules within that territory.

Are there states without a fixed territory?

Yes, there are some special cases:

1. Order of Malta – The Sovereign Order of Malta is an entity recognized under international law that maintains diplomatic relations with many states and has observer status at the United Nations. However, it does not possess its own territory, but operates from Rome.
2. The Holy See (Vatican City) – The Holy See is a sovereign entity under international law, but it is not identical to Vatican City. Should Vatican City cease to exist, the Holy See would theoretically continue to exist.
3. Governments in Exile – If a government loses its territory, it can continue to exist as a de jure state. Examples include the Tibetan government in exile or the Kuwaiti government during the Iraqi occupation of 1990–1991.
4. Nomadic or virtual states – Some groups or movements attempt to establish states without a fixed territory, e.g., the "seasteading" movement or micronations such as "Asgardia" (a self-proclaimed space state).

Conclusion

While states in the classical definition require a territory, there are some international legal and political constructs that challenge this principle.

You said:

What do territory-free states lack compared to states with territory? What conflicts arise with overlapping states?

ChatGPT said:

What do stateless (territory-free) states lack compared to states with territory?

States without a fixed territory have some crucial disadvantages compared to traditional nation-states:

1. No physical sovereignty
   • Without their own territory, they lack direct control over a geographical area in which laws can be enforced. They are often dependent on the recognition and tolerance of other states.
2. Lack of economic base
   • States with territory have natural resources, agriculture, and industry. A stateless actor must rely on donations, external aid, or other financial constructs.
3. No direct resident population
   • A traditional state has a population that lives, works, and accepts state authority. Stateless organizations such as the Order of Malta or governments in exile often have supporters but no territorially bound population.
4. Limited international influence
   • Without territory, full recognition as a state under international law is often lacking. Stateless entities can maintain diplomatic relations, but have less influence than a traditional nation-state.

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Conflicts between Overlapping States

When states overlap territorially or have competing claims to a territory, geopolitical tensions or even military conflicts often arise.

1. Dual Statehood and Shared Sovereignty
   • Example: Hong Kong (returned to China in 1997, but with its own legal system until 2047).
   • Example: Palestine/Israel – Both claim the same territory, with competing claims to sovereignty.
2. Separatism and Independence Movements
   • Regions such as Catalonia (Spain) or Kurdistan (Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Iran) claim statehood, but clash with the territorial integrity of existing states.
3. Governments in Exile and "De Jure vs. De Facto" States
   • Taiwan considers itself a sovereign state, but is considered a renegade province by China.
   • Tibet has a government in exile but claims territory administered by China.
4. Special Cases of Overlay
   • The Holy See (Vatican) exists independently within Italy, but was granted a territorial basis through the Lateran Treaty of 1929.
   • The Order of Malta has no territory, but owns extraterritorial buildings in Rome.

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Conclusion

Territory is a central element of the classical definition of the state. States without their own territory are limited in their power and functionality. Overlapping states or competing territorial claims can lead to diplomatic tensions, conflicts, or hybrid forms of government.

You said:

A state is currently being dismantled in the USA. Can corporations or companies become states without their own territory?

ChatGPT said:

A state is being "dismantled"? – What's happening in the USA?

If you're referring to the US state of Puerto Rico or a dissolved city/municipality, it could be related to financial problems or restructuring. Sometimes cities lose their self-government or merge, but the complete "abolition" of a state would be extremely unusual.

If you have more specific information, I can check this out.

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Can corporations or companies become states without territory?

From a purely legal perspective, corporations are not states, but there are some interesting developments and special cases:

1. Corporations with State-like Power

• East India Company (17th–19th centuries): A private trading company that administered colonies, had armies, and ruled territories.
• Meta (Facebook), Google & Co.: These technology corporations control information flows and set their own rules, similar to how states do for their citizens.
• Modern large corporations with their own "city-states":
  • Google planned a "smart city" in Toronto.
  • Disney managed an autonomous zone in Florida until 2023.

2. Corporate States Without Territory

• Seasteading: Entrepreneurs like Peter Thiel dream of "floating states" that operate outside of national laws.
• Cryptonations (e.g., "Bitnation") & DAO States: Digital organizations that act as "state alternatives" and offer their own digital citizens.

3. Corporations as "States of Exile"

• If a company is expelled from its country of origin, it could theoretically continue to exist as a legal entity – similar to a government in exile.
• Examples: International banks or holding companies often operate through tax havens without a physical home country.

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Conclusion

While corporations assume many state-like functions, they often lack full recognition under international law. However, the future could bring hybrid models between corporations, digital states, and traditional nations.

You said:

Which state functions cannot a state without territory assume?

ChatGPT said:

Which state functions cannot a state without territory assume?

A state without a fixed territory has significant limitations in its ability to function. Above all, it lacks key features that traditional states can exercise through their territory. Here are the most important state functions that such a state cannot perform or can only perform to a limited extent:

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1. Territorial Sovereignty & Security Guarantee

A traditional state controls its territory, secures its borders, and ensures internal order. A stateless actor cannot do this directly.

• No police or military system of its own to enforce laws.
• No border security or control over immigration.
• No infrastructure for disaster management or emergency response.

Example: A government in exile, such as the Tibetan government, cannot enforce its own laws in Tibet because it has no direct control.

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2. Economic Control & Resource Management

A state manages its territory economically through taxation, mineral resources, and infrastructure. A stateless state has no physical resources.

• No control over natural resources or agriculture.
• No national tax or financial system that is directly enforced.
• No infrastructure of their own, such as roads, power grids, or water supplies.

Example: The Order of Malta cannot build its own economy because it has no territory.

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3. Basic Social Services

States provide their citizens with basic services such as education, healthcare, and social security. States without territory can only do so to a limited extent.

• No national healthcare system or public hospitals.
• No state-run schools or universities.
• No social security or unemployment benefits for citizens.

Example: A digital cryptonation like "Asgardia" may offer memberships, but cannot guarantee real social benefits.

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4. Sovereign Diplomacy & International Recognition

Statelessness often means that other countries do not recognize the existence of that state or grant it only limited rights.

• No seat in the United Nations (UN), as most states require a territory to be recognized.
• No independent participation in international trade agreements.
• Difficulties in maintaining diplomatic relations due to the lack of an embassy network.

Example: Taiwan is not recognized as an independent state by many states because China considers it part of its territory.

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5. Citizenship & Legal Control

A state without territory can theoretically grant citizenship, but without its own territory, implementation is difficult.

• No internationally recognized passports.
• No judicial system with its own courts and prisons.
• No independent registration system or civil status register.

Example: The Order of Malta issues passports, but they are only accepted in a few countries.

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Conclusion

A state without territory can maintain some state functions (e.g., administration, diplomatic relations, symbolic laws), but it cannot assume genuine sovereign tasks such as security, the economy, or social welfare. In practice, it is heavily dependent on the tolerance of other states and therefore remains limited in its sovereignty.

You said:

However, there are certainly societies that develop into a state within a state. Think of the mafia or the so-called extended families. This is where sovereign states reach their limits. Aren't these examples of states without their own territory?

ChatGPT said:

Are mafias and extended families examples of states without territory?

Yes, powerful criminal organizations such as the mafia, clans, or cartel-like structures often assume state functions within an existing state. They act like a kind of "state within a state," but there are crucial differences from a real state—particularly with regard to international recognition and formal state authority.

Nevertheless, there are parallels that show that these groups build state-like structures without controlling a clearly defined territory.

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1. What state functions do mafias and extended families assume? Clans?

a) Monopoly on Violence & Jurisdiction

• In many regions, these groups control violence – either because the official state is too weak or because they practice a kind of "shadow justice."
• Example:
  • The Mafia in Italy enforces "codes of honor," decides disputes, and punishes violations with violence.
  • Clan families in Germany or France have their own "internal jurisdictions," where conflicts are not reported to the police but are "settled internally."

b) Economic Control & Jurisdiction Taxes

• Criminal organizations often levy a type of protection tax ("pizzo" in the Sicilian Mafia), which allows them to exercise economic control.
• They invest in legal businesses to launder their capital, thereby creating their own economic power.
• In some countries (e.g., Mexico with drug cartels), they force companies to pay levies – similar to how a state collects taxes.

c) Social Security & Loyalty Systems

• Mafia groups offer their members and their families protection, financial support, and often a type of "career path" within the organization.
• Some clans or cartels even take on social functions in weak states:
  • In Mexico and Colombia, drug cartels have built roads and helped the poor.
  • In some neighborhoods of Naples or Palermo, the Camorra provides loans to poor people – often under mafia-like conditions.

d) Secret Diplomacy & Parallel Structures

• Criminal organizations often have contacts with politicians, companies, and even intelligence agencies.
• They operate across borders and sometimes more effectively than some states.
• In some countries (e.g., Lebanon with Hezbollah), there are organizations that act as both political parties, armed groups, and social movements – almost like an independent state.

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2. What does the Mafia lack compared to a real state?

Despite these parallels, the Mafia remains a non-fully-fledged state because it lacks some key elements:

1. International Recognition
   • States maintain embassies, conclude treaties, and are members of the UN – this is not the case for criminal organizations.
2. Clear Sovereignty
   • A real state can enact laws that apply to everyone.
   • Mafias and clans operate covertly and have no official legislation.
3. Stability & Long-Term Rule
   • States exist for centuries, while mafia structures are unstable due to arrests, power struggles, or internal conflicts.
   • Their power is based on fear, not on voluntary recognition by citizens.

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3. Conclusion: Semi-states without territory?

Yes, mafia organizations and clans can be considered "shadow states." They often assume state functions, especially in areas where the actual government is weak.

But they are not true states because they lack legitimate sovereignty, territorial control, and international recognition. They are rather parallel power structures that nestle within existing states and challenge them—but cannot (so far) replace them.

You said:

If one considers states from the perspective of a contract, then there must be ways to terminate a contract. Can't criminal organizations like the mafia be considered a contract-breaker, with people turning away and orienting themselves toward other power structures?

ChatGPT said:

Criminal organizations as a "contract termination" of the state?

Yes, if one views the state as a contractual order (e.g., in the sense of the social contract of Hobbes, Locke, or Rousseau), then the emergence of mafia structures or other parallel societies could be seen as a termination of this contract by certain groups.

This happens especially when the state fails to fulfill its basic functions—such as protection, justice, or economic security. People then turn to alternative power structures that take on these tasks, even if they are criminal organizations.

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1. Why do people terminate the "social contract"?

According to political theories, the state exists because people voluntarily give up parts of their freedom in order to maintain protection and order. When the state no longer provides this, they seek alternatives.

Reasons for "termination of the contract":

• Lack of security: In regions where the police and justice system fail, organized crime often takes over this role.
• Economic hardship: People join criminal networks because they receive income or protection there.
• Corruption & Injustice: When the state is perceived as unjust, people seek "fairer" (even illegal) solutions.
• Cultural or religious differences: Some groups develop parallel societies because they do not identify with the state (e.g., clans or cartels).

Example: In southern Italy, some people see the mafia not only as a threat, but as an "alternative government" because it delivers swift "justice" while the state is corrupt or ineffective.

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2. Criminal organizations as "new contracts"?

When people "terminate" the state, they often seek a new order. Mafia groups, clans, or cartels offer a kind of replacement contract:

• Security & Protection: → Instead of police, there is "family honor" or mafia revenge.

Example: In areas where drug cartels are in control (e.g., Mexico, Colombia), they build schools, roads, and distribute money to the poor – as an "alternative" to the government.

But is this really a "termination of contract"?

The problem: These new power structures are based on coercion, not genuine freedom of choice.

• Anyone who opposes the mafia is threatened or murdered.
• The state may be ineffective, but at least it claims to uphold justice and equality.
• Mafia societies are often even more unjust and based on nepotism and violence.

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3. Can the "contract" really be terminated?

Purely theoretically, yes:

• People could collectively decide that they want a different state or system (revolution, secession).
• Example: The USA "separated" from Great Britain because it no longer wanted to accept the Crown's rules.

But in reality, it is difficult because:

• The state does not simply "disappear" – even weak states struggle for power.
• Alternative systems often arise not voluntarily, but through violence.
• Individuals are trapped in a state, even if they reject it.

Example: Even if a small Italian town accepts the Mafia as an alternative, it cannot officially "separate" from Italy.

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4. Conclusion: Is the Mafia a Dissolution of the State or Just a Symptom?

• Yes, if you view the state as a contract, then criminal organizations are a sign that this contract has been broken. They fill a gap left by the state.
• No, because people don't really have a choice – they simply submit themselves to a new, often worse power.
• Reality: Mafia and parallel societies are more a symptom of a weak state than a true dissolution of the contract. Most people would prefer a functioning state if they had the choice.

Ultimately, this raises the central question:
???? When does a state cease to be a state? – When its citizens collectively ignore it? Or if he is no longer able to fulfill his duties?

You said:

Can you please summarize our conversation in a short paragraph?

ChatGPT said:

We discussed whether states can exist without territory and whether criminal organizations like the mafia could be considered such. While traditional states require territorial control, sovereignty, and international recognition, groups like the mafia often assume state functions in weak or corrupt societies. They provide protection, economic systems, and a kind of "shadow justice," but are based on coercion rather than a legitimate social contract. In this sense, their rise can be seen as a sign of a "terminated" social contract—though not as a real alternative to a functioning state.

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